The Vomitorium

It’s late on Friday night and I’m trolling the Internet for porn. More accurately, I was on Ren’s blog, trying to find her posts explaining misogyny in porn. I’d read them before, but nothing significant lingered in my memory. I ended up finding her ’smut links’ instead and checked them out.

The last one she links to, she posts a warning. I don’t get triggered, despite my dislike of watching women get abused and humiliated, so the warning didn’t deter me. Here’s the sample page. Here’s my own warning: It’s not for those of weak stomachs.

The bit that interested me the most was “The Vomitorium” (scroll to the bottom). Per the site, “[W]hores have a tough time holding down their meals when they’re being throatfucked with within an inch of their worthless lives. That’s where we step in. We lens the puking…”

As it happens, I’m no stranger to the puking-while-attempting-a-blow-job. One was consensual, and naturally, promptly ended when the puking accident happened. The other wasn’t consensual, and didn’t end. Neither was pleasurable. Throwing up isn’t fun.

I am irritated with people who truly seem to believe that if they don’t enjoy something or if something fails to turn them on, it must be so for everyone. I usually don’t go down that road myself and have looked at extreme BDSM pictures (one of a person I have been in the same room with, who does BDSM as hardcore as it is possible to do) without feeling a conviction one way or the other as to the feelings and sensations of the person involved, or of those who choose to watch that sort of thing.

But I have to wonder, does anyone — anyone at all — enjoy throwing up with a dick down their throats? And even if they did, is that really a sexual thing which someone could watch and get off on? I can even understand getting off on getting shat on, but I can’t understand orgasming because someone threw up.

And that whole bucket-bukkake business. Words fail.

I wanted to read Ren’s take on the misogynistic porn subject even more after checking out her porn links, so I found her two posts on the subject. Actually, just read the first one, the second doesn’t say much more.

All right, so there’s a demand and there’s a supply. Men hate women because women are suddenly uppity and they feel oppressed and angry. They’re confused, the poor babies, and who better to take it out on than women? These sound more like rationalizations to me than explanations.

Because women have far more reason to feel oppressed by men, far more cause for anger, and yet, we women don’t have a desire to see men abused on film.

Here’s an explanation for why men want it and women don’t, despite having more ’cause’: Because men have been taught and socialized to lash out. They’re taught that it’s okay to externalize their own insecurity, anger and failures, and the culture implicitly informs them that women are handy recipients/receptacles of this. Women, meanwhile, have been taught that whatever happens, it’s all their own fault, so they should punish themselves, let themselves be punished and justly hated, and on no account are they to turn outward with blame. [Link is to a post by Reclusive Leftist which features an incredibly disturbing video of a woman being verbally and physically abused by her husband while she is apologetic and fearful. The video was filmed by the woman's 13-year-old son, who joins in the verbal abuse at one point, and at another, can't bring himself to point the camera at his mom being beaten by his dad.]

So the two sexes fall into the natural role of abuser and abused.

What I see in porn like what I linked to above is a symptom, rather than something that is problematic in itself. I find it disturbing that something completely non-erotic (even shit is more erotic than throw-up — at least it’s connected to a ‘dirty bit’), something usually associated with sickness, something that I wouldn’t be surprised often happens during rape, should be presented as jerk-off material. Note, this is different from rape porn. Things happen during rape that are entirely non-erotic, even for those who would get off on rape, things that have no semblance to sex.

And I’m even more disturbed that women let themselves be used as jerk-off material for men who really truly hate them. Imagine this: I’m a black girl and there’s a market for white men peeing into the mouth of a black girl. So I let myself be tied up and let a circle of white men stand over me, calling me nigger and peeing into my mouth, forcing me to swallow, and laughing and jeering as they do it. Then they turn me around and ass-rape me with a broom-stick. Let’s say the film also shows blood coming out of my ass (which doesn’t have to be real, but the viewer wouldn’t know). Yeah, you white folk hate me and I’m going to help you get off on it.

I signed the consent form, I have a contract with this porn company, I got paid, nobody got hurt, everything’s dandy, right?

And yet? I would be wondering how a black girl could do that to herself, and I would be disgusted that anyone would make money off that kind of thing, and I’d be very disturbed at what it says about how white people want to treat black people and aren’t even ashamed enough of it to hide it.

Men have plenty of horrible impulses that we force them to control through laws. Yes, it may not be the done thing to bring up child porn in this context, but really, what’s the difference in principle? If mere desire/demand is enough to supply anything — anything at all — then why isn’t child porn okay? Let’s say, not child porn — let’s say Lolita porn. Those kids are old enough to fuck and I think even should be allowed to. Why not find the least developed among 12-13 year olds and make porn for the starved pedophiles among us? (Let’s forget the legal age barriers for now — I’m asking a moral question: Why disapprove of one morally and not the other, assuming nothing is illegal?)

Why must we, as a society, disapprove of (not ban, just disapprove of and refuse to patronize) porn that sexualizes and commodifies children before they have the tools to deal with the ramifications, why must we, as a society, disapprove of porn that dehumanizes and abuses on racist grounds, and not do the same for women?

Why rationalize, attempt to explain, try to excuse, and cater to, men’s overwhelming desire to see women beaten down, raped and degraded? And what kind of a woman who has other choices facilitates this crap?

I understand that things won’t just disappear because I happen to have different tastes. I don’t expect them to. But at least I can say, “I won’t be a part of this.”

62 Responses

  1. As a note, from the second part of my posts..

    “I am not, by discussing these topics, attempting to excuse or legitimize the behavior of anyone in anyway; I am merely bringing some theories to the table. Nor do I think all men who watch porn, rough or otherwise, share these views on women, society, or sexuality as a whole.”

    Those posts were written after a whole lot of observation, and yep, talking to people (even men). In no way was I attempting to blame women for anything. I’d like to make sure that is abundently clear.

    People ask why is porn misogynistic. I offered theories (based on actually talking to and observing people). Not my fault if people don’t like them, and in no way was that an “oh, pity the poor menz post”, but not my fault if people fail to see that as well.

    “Why rationalize, attempt to explain, try to excuse, and cater to, men’s overwhelming desire to see women beaten down, raped and degraded? And what kind of a woman who has other choices facilitates this crap?

    I understand that things won’t just disappear because I happen to have different tastes. I don’t expect them to. But at least I can say, “I won’t be a part of this.””

    Well, this kind I suppose. It pays well, and being rather misanthropic myself…and you go ahead and not be a part of it, no one is forcing you to.

    But out of curiosity…who do you suppose makes more money of the slut shaming, abuse and terror of women…JM Productions, the Hollywood Film companies that put out stuff like “Captivity”, or, oh, NBC who makes Law & Order Special Victims Unit?

    As for the kid/Lolita porn…the difference is, well, adults are far more capable of rendering consent.

  2. But out of curiosity…who do you suppose makes more money of the slut shaming, abuse and terror of women…JM Productions, the Hollywood Film companies that put out stuff like “Captivity”, or, oh, NBC who makes Law & Order Special Victims Unit?

    I wouldn’t compare Captivity with L&O SVU, but I HAVE criticized Captivity strongly. Because I criticize one aspect of our culture’s abuses of women above, doesn’t mean I am disregarding another.

    As for the kid/Lolita porn…the difference is, well, adults are far more capable of rendering consent.

    I think kids in their early teens are capable of giving consent. I wasn’t talking of child porn, note. In my culture, they often get married at that age. Many of them are perfectly happy and aren’t damaged by it.

    Well, this kind I suppose. It pays well, and being rather misanthropic myself…and you go ahead and not be a part of it, no one is forcing you to.

    Is it you, Ren? because my impression is, you won’t do anything that you don’t personally like and enjoy, and in this post, I’m questioning that anyone could personally like, have a fetish for, and enjoy throwing up when trying to suck cock — and similar stuff that is clearly, to me at least, not likely to be enjoyable. Note, I am not saying that because I don’t like it, nobody can. I don’t say that about the BDSM folks, and they do some pretty weird shit. It’s just the quality and nature of the acts involved that make them unlikely to have any sexual value for the person performing them.

    I don’t think hard sex is even as bad as the movie Captivity though, and I find Captivity far more horrifying than much porn because of the mainstream cultural nature of its venue.

    You say you do it because you’re misanthropic, which I don’t buy. I’m misanthropic too, and that still doesn’t make me wholly lose sight of the larger consequences of my acts. You were championing he Jena 6 the other day — yet, why do you care what happens to them or to anybody, if you’re truly misanthropic? However, I wasn’t talking about you, since you have repeatedly said you don’t do things you don’t enjoy, and what you do, presumably, is not so devoid of enjoyment for women that you are simply facilitating ugly hatred.

    I do have a problem with our culture accepting that women will help along their own hatred, and just because I can turn my face away and pretend all this doesn’t exist, everything’s fine. People would not so easily excuse the same level of simulation of hatred of black people, for instance (or would they?). How do you respond to that one, by the way? Forget the ‘child’ porn. How do you feel about the other example?

  3. I feel that if the woman consents to do it, it is her choice, whether I like it (or the message in it) personally or not.

  4. I agree, I can’t understand why anyone would be attracted to the vomitorium example or other aspects of misogyny in porn, or how stuff like this fills any void that has a right to be filled.

    So yeah, I have no problem with society disapproving and refusing to purchase it.

    My question would be, though, how would one implement this and how would one draw the necessary lines?

    Certainly, we can make our opinion known, and can try to counsel (if we have appropriate access) sex workers about how to find less oppressive ways to make money in the industry if they choose to stay in it. Some, of course, may still gravitate towards “vomitorium” stuff — unless it’s banned, what can we do?

    And that gets into the line-drawing territory. I personally have no problem with the idea of banning certain kinds of porn which seem to be purely misogynistic with no redeeming qualities. I wouldn’t put all gonzo porn in this category, I have no problem with extreme acts that have something else going on besides empty humiliation of women. Some of the porn Ren has described, for example, even “the foot,” doesn’t bother me at all.

    But that invokes all kinds of problems. Who is to say that my line drawing is any more authoritative than anyone else’s? If we put the decision in someone else’s hands, maybe all BDSM gets eliminated.

    If there were a way to set up a panel to evaluate porn and ban all Max Hardcore-type stuff that seems to exist mostly to satisfy urges to degrade women, though, I’d be all for it. But I wonder if this would be implementable.

    In terms of societal refusal to enable or excuse this category of porn — that sounds great in theory, but I keep coming back to how do we do that?

  5. “If there were a way to set up a panel to evaluate porn and ban all Max Hardcore-type stuff that seems to exist mostly to satisfy urges to degrade women, though, I’d be all for it.”

    See, and I wouldn’t. I don’t like or watch Max Hardcore, but banning? No thanks.

  6. The reason I don’t think it’s implementable is because of the slippery slope issues, which are the reasons I think most people who aren’t into banning aren’t into it. But let’s just say there WERE a way to draw a clear line which would eliminate solely misogynistic porn but not any kind of porn that could conceivably be mutually desirable. The latter category is pretty huge — eg golden showers, BDSM, rough sex, etc. What is the downside to this?

    The only downside I see (and I know reasonable minds may disagree) is implementation — so while that may make this example moot, I think if it were doable, it’d be worth doing.

  7. You say you do it because you’re misanthropic, which I don’t buy. I’m misanthropic too, and that still doesn’t make me wholly lose sight of the larger consequences of my acts. You were championing he Jena 6 the other day — yet, why do you care what happens to them or to anybody, if you’re truly misanthropic? However, I wasn’t talking about you, since you have repeatedly said you don’t do things you don’t enjoy, and what you do, presumably, is not so devoid of enjoyment for women that you are simply facilitating ugly hatred.

    I do have a problem with our culture accepting that women will help along their own hatred, and just because I can turn my face away and pretend all this doesn’t exist, everything’s fine. People would not so easily excuse the same level of simulation of hatred of black people, for instance (or would they?). How do you respond to that one, by the way? Forget the ‘child’ porn. How do you feel about the other example?
    I feel that if the woman consents to do it, it is her choice, whether I like it (or the message in it) personally or not.

    Ren Ev is totally ok with women helping hatred of women along as long as that particular woman is ok with it.

    Yeah. Just fuck the rest of us.

    Thank fuck she doesn’t call herself a feminist anymore. It’d be interesting to know what solidarity means to people like her. She’s like “oh sex work is fabby and i get so much money by fucking johns on film and being humiliated, which i luuurve, because i’m such a rad chick…”

    Yeah, right.

    Drop the denial, baby, and look at it from the perspective of everyday women (if that’s within your material view).

  8. Witchy: Listen sweetie, I really am trying to AVOID you and any further bullshit, but when you throw it at me feet, I can’t help but step in it. Here’s the deal, lady, I am all for a woman’s power of choice, saavy? A woman can choose to be a nun, run for public office, dig ditches for a living, write screenplays, or yeah, fuck however she wants and I am going to support her choice, even if being a member of the Catholic Church, a high ranking politico, tearing up the earth, writing something contraversial, or fucking is not in the best interests of Tribe Womyn.

    How about you and the rest of the merry band treating any woman who doesn’t agree with you like shit, anonymously (and sometimes not) acting like insulting asshole jerks on their blogs, so on, so forth, speak of your treatment of other women. We don’t agree with you, so just fuck the rest of us, right?

    Figured.

    And don’t think for a second YOU get to tell me what I can and cannot get off on sexually, cupcake, because I SURE as hell have never presumed to be arrogant enough to do that for anyone else.

    PS? You paying my bills? No? Then fuck off when it comes to telling me how I can earn my living.

    Drop the moral high ground superiority I am the voice of all women bullshit, baby, and try to look at it with the persepective of a realist (if that’s within your arrogant view).

  9. PS? You paying my bills? No? Then fuck off when it comes to telling me how I can earn my living.

    Drop the moral high ground superiority I am the voice of all women bullshit, baby, and try to look at it with the persepective of a realist (if that’s within your arrogant view).

    Yeah… well, there we have it. It all comes down to patriarchal capitalism in the end.

    A “woman can choose” from the severely constrained roles offered by the dominant ideology.

    Well, I’m sorry. Those choices are too small for me. I have bigger dreams for me and my daughters. Not to mention the women I work with who would feel totally destroyed by your big up rah for the tool of their destruction.

    I’m not telling you what you can or cannot get off on sweatheart, I’m just saying thank fuck you’re not identifying as a feminist anymore. I have no interest in the ‘moral high ground’. This isn’t about morals – this is about the lives of women and girls. This isn’t about you, RE.

    Oh, and p.s. “baby” isn’t a good euphanism for me since I’m old enough to be your mother.

  10. I am all for a woman’s power of choice, saavy? A woman can choose to be a nun, run for public office, dig ditches for a living, write screenplays, or yeah, fuck however she wants and I am going to support her choice

    So you’d support a woman’s choice to do whatever, yes? That’s your attempt at ‘feminism’?

  11. WW, this is an unfair and self-serving mischaracterization of what Ren has said.

    Although as I’ve said above, I think there may be a place to draw a line in terms of banning, I can see the argument as to why – despite not supporting misogynistic porn – banning isn’t a realistic strategy. For one thing, could you control the black market? Also, how could you prove something isn’t chosen?

    I think one could argue that if something is harmful it should be banned, and gagging/vomiting to me falls in that category. But if it doesn’t fall in that category, how can you prove someone didn’t decide that they have no problem with a particular kink and choose to take advantage of whatever financial benefit there is from that? Similarly with a video I’ve seen circulating online with a woman kicking several men in the balls until they collapse. Apparently they signed up for this, although it’s hard to understand why.

    Also, Ren’s point about your paying her bills is well taken. It’s easy to decide that it’s good for women for other women to draw lines about what choices they should be able to make. But are we willing to step in and find equivalent substitute income? If we call someone who is against eliminating various choices a woman hater, then should we also call someone who feels it’s OK for women to work punishing night shifts doing hard manual labor a woman hater too? And if so, how do we propose to find substitute jobs for all these women?

    “Drop the denial, baby, and look at it from the perspective of everyday women (if that’s within your material view).”

    I think you should look a little closer to home on this one. How does your solution – apparently, elimination of certain kinds of porn which are not physically dangerous and which one cannot prove are not the best feasible economic choice for a woman who might need every penny to support herself and/or a family – create positive change in the lives of those women or others?

    That said, does that mean one should endorse porn copy which says that women are worthless whores, like the filth Apostate linked? To me, absolutely not. It’s abhorrent. But swinging by to criticize someone who’s making a difficult-to-disprove utilitarian argument doesn’t really get at how, in the real world, we do something constructive about this. And that’s why the only conclusion can be that it’s self-serving slamming under the usual sanctimonious guise. Not fooling anyone.

  12. Witchy-Woo:

    Yeah. Just fuck the rest of us.

    No, sweetheart, just fuck you. I’d rather have Ren speaking for me than someone like you any day of the week. Your comment about Ren being okay with women helping hatred of women is just hilarious. Who do you think you’re helping when you exhibit so much hatred for women who refuse to let you determine what they should be free to do? I’ll give you a hint:

    It starts with a “p” and it ends in “atriarchy”.

  13. “Those choices are too small for me. I have bigger dreams for me and my daughters.”

    That’ s great. I have bigger dreams for me and my daughter too. But what about women whose pool of options IS small in the real world? How is throwing out the pool open to your daughters helpful to them?

    I think that trying to help to expand women’s options individually and collectively is the best way to be anything but hypocritical about this. Anything else is just a bandaid, or worse — a catfight.

  14. If it isn’t about her then maybe you should finally move onto something or someone more worthy of your considerable energies.

    as for your daughters: what, you mean like sacrificing your son to keep them safe? didn’t you offer to do that once? You know, I’m not exactly a big fan of vomit porn, but I can’t say there aren’t other things I don’t find at least as inexplicable and repellent.

  15. “Oh, and p.s. ‘baby’ isn’t a good euphanism (sic.)for me since I’m old enough to be your mother.”

    Reading comprehension 101, mom. Ren was actually paraphrasing, and not addressing, you in using the expression “baby.” You referred to her that way in your post above (rememeber?)

  16. Women in this country earn 17% less than men doing the same job. I’m sure it’s similar where you are.

    I’m not about to fall into one of your ‘how can you make it so’ arguments, Octogalore, because – frankly – they’re ridiculous. Been there, done that. I understand that for you and others like you the status quo is comfortable. All
    I’m saying is that others suffer for your supposed ‘comfort’ and maybe you (generic) need to broaden your world-view before making your assumptions.

    Incidentally, I’m not ’swinging by’ here. I read here regularly. And “does that mean one should endorse porn copy which says that women are worthless whores, like the filth Apostate linked” – the filth that Apostate linked carries exactly the same message about women that the ‘work’ RE does. RE’s ‘work’ fosters the noti0n that women are worthless – didn’t any of you get that yet?

  17. Woohoo! The tribe arrived!

  18. bint – you’ve been dragged into this and you know nothing at all about me. I’d quit now – while you’re ahead.

    belledamme? You’re just a fuckwit and I can’t take anything you say seriously anymore. Sorry. I’m sure you’re a lovely person and all that but you’re ignorant and you post shite. You’re an obvious puppet.

    Ok. Bring on Kennerson and I’m An Idiot Blue….

  19. witchy:

    The second you eliminate product you own, use, consume that may have been produced by an industry that exploits people, you can run this game. Until then?? Not so much.

    And if you don’t think it’s ‘work’…oh forget it, aren’t you the one who wrote the “put your money where your mouth is” post?

    And sure, some porn does run with the whole “women (at least the portrayed ones in their films) are worthless”…where as you and others run with…well, shoot, a surprisingly similar line, though you do try to pretty it up a little.

  20. Well that was intelligent RE! (not)

    What are you trying to say hon?

  21. Honey, if you can’t figure it out, I wouldn’t be calling anyone else unintelligent.

  22. Aren’t we supposed to be communicating cupcake? I’d hate for spelling and grammar to get in the way. Please be clear, at least :)

  23. The second you eliminate product you own, use, consume that may have been produced by an industry that exploits people, you can run this game.

    This doesn’t make too much sense honey

  24. I have to ask, have you been drinking or something? In any event, I’ve said everything I have to say to you. If you can grasp it, that is not my problem. It’s pretty plain and straight forward, really. But, to make it really, really simple for you, it goes like this:

    You think me and my industry are dangerous to women. We all get that.

    I think your attitude towards women who do not fall in with your way of thinking are equally repulsive and dangerous in their own way.

    It’s that easy, and really, that is all I have to say to you.

  25. edit, since we’re being such the stickler:

    “If you can’t grasp it, that is not my problem.”

  26. Oh I’m loving the personal slur RE. “Have you been drinking or something”. A bit like BD’s “she has issues/is unbalanced/is a bit mad etc” (i.e. take no notice -she’s off her head).

    Wish it were true but I’m not, unfortunately. And I expect I’ve met and worked with more women who’ve had to live with the end product of your industry than you care to think about. But, hey, who cares as long as you get your rocks off?

  27. “But, hey, who cares as long as you get your rocks off?”

    Kinda like you’re doing right now?

  28. Time to wind up Kennerson and IACB, no?

  29. “Kinda like you’re doing right now?”

    Oh Fuck off

  30. Witchy: Like I said, I’ve been avoiding any sort of interaction with you, you’re the one who has (repeatedly) chosen to not offer me the same consideration. So yeah, right back at ya.

  31. I’m not going to stop commenting RE – even if you (or any of the yay pornies) get in first. And if you lot make anti-women comments – as you do – I’ll say my piece. Do you want me to be silent or something?

  32. I expect I’ve met and worked with more women who’ve had to live with the end product of your industry than you care to think about.

    Care to think about that for a moment?

  33. No, I never asked you to shut up. But I’ve not commented on your blog since a certain agreement, nor attacked you on the blogs of others where a variety of folk from all sides of whatever issue have been commenting. You cannot say the same. And the post The Apostate was referencing was not at all an anti woman statement on my part.

    I value a persons right to choose to do things with other consenting people. You don’t have to agree with me or like it. Never said you do.

  34. I have thought about it.

  35. RE – I haven’t dissed y0u anywhere.

    THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.

    I’m a mop-up merchant- right? It’s pretty well known across the interwebs that I’m in the recovery business.

    The wreckers really piss me off.

    You, RE, are in with the wreckers. So you’ve thought about it. You haven’t tried to change it? You piss me off.

  36. WW:

    Haven’t dissed me? Right. And yes, I know you are in the recovery business. And I’ve made my feelings on how the sex industry can change, how it can be changed for what I think is the better, and what sort of activism I am into pretty clear on a few occassions. Not your methods, and obviously not good enough and clearly you feel they will never accomplish anything. Fine.

    And I piss you off. Well, too bad I suppose. Maybe. Frankly, I don’t think I care.

  37. Yes… maybe the sex ‘industry’ can change. And, yes, I hear your activism RE – whatever works, huh?

    This isn’t about you or me. It’s about those women and girls who’re trapped inside the misogny of it all. Well, maybe it is about you.

    I have done some seriously good work.

  38. Well WW, that’s great. I’m glad you’ve done some seriously good work. I feel the same way about various things I’ve done as well, and I am sure many people feel the same way about things they’ve done. And you know, all of them probably have done some seriously good work.

  39. witchy-woo

    bint – you’ve been dragged into this and you know nothing at all about me. I’d quit now – while you’re ahead.

    I know lots about you. In fact, I know more than I care to about you as a matter of fact. Of course you’d quit now. That’s what you do. I, on the other hand, enjoy calling out hypocrites like you whenever the opportunity arrives. I guess you aren’t used to being around women who don’t particularly care what you think they should do. By the way, this was particularly funny:

    You piss me off.

    Should I pass you a hankie? This is the internet, WW. Nobody is required to be nice to you.

  40. I’m sorry to come stomping in here all heavy-handed (footed?), but I think there is a much larger issue in this comment thread than pornography, and it’s the way that a handful of individuals on the web use feminism as their personal power play. For as long as feminism has been around, some people have made a big deal out of their commitment to feminism, but their actions have revealed a deep, deep disconnect with feminism. It is apparent that the goal for such folks is not really fighting patriarchy (though it may have started out that way), but bullying and threatening other women.

    If the issue were really about pornography, then this would be easy. Instead of following people around the web, they’d be out on the street helping women make choices that they felt were healthier. They’d be trying to use every opportunity to forge alliances so that they could get the word out – because if they were seriously interested in working respectfully with women who wanted the hell out of the sex industry, Ren and others online would be linking them so that people who wanted out could find them.

    But that’s not what this is about. What this is about is insisting that everyone else agree with them, and then dogging the people who don’t, because this is an obsession, not with the oppression of women, but with this one woman who will not bend to their will.

    This is not about helping or protecting women. This is about ego, and it is about using “feminism” to support that ego at the expense of real women whose worst crime is that they don’t agree with you.

  41. Well, to be fair, I avoid people because I was kindly threatened into it. I don’t know who all you are addressing here, but yep, sure enough, I’ve had it with feminism in blogland. I was out doing my activist thing on Wed. I worked thurs, and kindly asked people to donate cold weather clothing to out reach programs for sex workers, fri I donated clothing and worked, this morning i worked. Today happens to be Mr. E’s b-day, and the dude has a Staph infection. Somedays I can put up with more crap than others.

  42. …and I am linked to various outreach programs, both on my blog and the ppa one.

  43. The obvious example was Witchy, but there are several other examples to choose from.

    And frankly, anyone who behaves like a bully is not acting like a feminist, as far as I’m concerned. (You know, that thing about the car and the garage?) Feminism is about ending oppression, with a particular focus on women. It is not about bashing women because you don’t think they’re feminist.

    I’m sorry about Mr. E’s staph infection. Yuk. Bean had one a year ago, and they’re not fun. I hope he’s feeling better soon.

  44. Puppet? Whose hand do you fondly imagine being up my ass, dear witchy, dear witchy?

    Listen, I’m really sorry your social and political skills suck, but it’s no one else’s fault, you know? Maybe you should consider turning some of that much-vaunted “examination” on your own sweet self. I mean, I know you’ve gotten your Supra Feminist Professional License and all, which renders you Exempt, but even so.

    Like f’r instance: if you go into a “friendship” with someone with the expectation that you’re gonna -covert- them into your belief system, and then get all stroppy and temper tantrumy when for -some reason- they don’t abandon their entire career and life experience just because some Dolores Umbridge-a-like on the other side of the Atlantic reigned in her natural ill nature and intolerance long enough to act vaguely human for a little while–well, again, neither your clueless arrogance nor your ineptitude is anyone else’s fault but your own.

    It’s really not that complicated, WW. Either you meet people where they’re at or you don’t. Either you look at people as adult human beings in their own right, or you look at them as wayward children and/or potential recruits. Guess which one you’re doing? Yeah, that’s right, -you.- No one else. -You.-

    I’m not surprised you don’t want to listen; it can’t be very pleasant to hear. Nonetheless, I’m -far- from the only person giving you that feedback, WW.

    The problem isn’t RE’s life. The problem is, you were an asshole to her even while pretending to be her pal, and then when she complained about it, as most reasonable people would do eventually, you amped up the self-righteousness and slut-bashing. You never “dissed” her? Do you really want us to pull up all the quotes, ww? It won’t take too much time, really. How many different places are you going to try to pull this in? When are you going to give it up? Before the hole you’re digging breaks on through to China?

  45. as per “issues:” considering how many times yer pals have thrown “sociopath” and–why, yes, I believe you might have done this too! i can look it up–”narcissist” at RE, really, I don’t think you’ve got much of a leg to stand on here.

    But yeah, at this point I’m more than willing to cheerfully forgo armchair DSM diagnoses when “chronic asshole” works at least as well.

  46. “You think me and my industry are dangerous to women. We all get that.

    I think your attitude towards women who do not fall in with your way of thinking are equally repulsive and dangerous in their own way.

    It’s that easy, and really, that is all I have to say to you.”

    Are you seriously attempting to suggest that objecting to the death and destruction of women is as “repulsive and dangerous” as promoting the death and destruction of women? There must be some misunderstanding here.

  47. TBW: I don’t like seeing anyone destroyed, thanks. I have different thoughts on how things can be changed, and I do object to having them completely dissmissed because they are not the thoughts people think I should have. Truth be told, I do think women constantly dissmissing, mocking, berating, downgrading, and otherwise being assholes to women can be just as destructive to them as anything else. Thanks for asking. I’ve said before and I will undoubtedly have to say it again: I’ve been treated far worse by women who supposedly love and care about women than I have ever been treated by a pornographer.

  48. Octogalore said: I agree, I can’t understand why anyone would be attracted to the vomitorium example or other aspects of misogyny in porn, or how stuff like this fills any void that has a right to be filled.

    So yeah, I have no problem with society disapproving and refusing to purchase it.

    My question would be, though, how would one implement this and how would one draw the necessary lines?

    I don’t even want to ban, because like I said, it’s just a symptom, not the main problem. The main problem is that men, for whatever reasons, want to see this crap. That’s what we have to fix, which will remove the demand and the supply.

    Ren, if you would only admit it’s unhealthy ugly stuff, and exploitative to a degree, I would be satisfied. You don’t respond to my analogous situation with the black woman. There is exploitation in these examples — just admit it. They reflect something sick and unhealthy about the way our society sees women and lets them be treated. Admit it. You know?

    I have no intention of calling you personally evil — you have healthy normal impulses and are a good-hearted person. Yes, we’re both extremely misanthropic, not least because the world hasn’t always been kind to us, but we haven’t been able to stifle our natural empathy and goodness. Why pretend, for the sake of the vomitorium, that we have?

    Please note, I don’t want to ban anything! That would accomplish fuck-all.

  49. I didn’t intend for this to become a slanging match between Ren / her supporters vs. Witchy-Woo. This is terrible. I can’t even take sides, because nobody’s coming off looking very good.

    Any future comments that can’t lay off the personal insults, get deleted.

  50. Apostate: So what if I do have a puke fetish? I don’t actually, but I do like rough oral, and well, puke happens. I don’t like scat or age play either, but I do think adults who are consenting should be able to do it, even film or photograph it for other like minded folk. I know jews with nazi fetishes, and yep, it’s odd, but…

    Hey, I’ve said before the sex industry can be ugly and exploitive. That I’ve never denied. But I don’t believe in regulating content done by consenting people because yep, sure enough, people have ugly mean sides, and I think they should be allowed to express them, even in a sexual context, even if other people don’t like it.

  51. Ren, you keep missing where I say I don’t want to regulate or ban it. It’s a symptom. I can’t and won’t be nonjudgmental about people who use it and like it, because it reveals (to me, quite clearly) unhealthy hatred of a class of people.

    But you said it’s exploitative, so ok. I’ll let it go at that, because that seems to indicate you’d be just as happy to see this sort of thing die down as I would. And if that’s the case, will you remove the link from your sidebar? Please don’t take this as blackmail, or even a demand. I’m simply honestly curious. You seem to have acknowledged that it’s exploitative. To me, that entails lack of support for it, which isn’t what having it on your sidebar would indicate. I’M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD REMOVE IT, just asking a question.

    To me, it matters that people do what they like doing, or at least don’t have to do things that are harmful, unenjoyable or contrary to their natures, just to be able to pay the rent. That applies as much to menial work as to disagreeable porn.

    You also miss where I say that it’s not so much me projecting my own tastes as being unable to imagine (I have a good imagination) that something like puking is fun for the woman. If it is, fine. But I have a difficult time believing that.

    And I do care if the woman enjoys herself. You have said multiple times that you would do what you do without being paid for it, that you have in fact, done so. And I am glad that that’s the case, and am perfectly willing to forget the politics of it — because you like doing it is reason enough for you to do it.

    But still, I would like to see men’s desire for these degrading things disappear, just as I would like to see white people’s hatred of black people disappear. Too much to ask? Maybe. But then, so are all ideals.

  52. “I’m not about to fall into one of your ‘how can you make it so’ arguments, Octogalore, because – frankly – they’re ridiculous. Been there, done that.”

    Huh? I’ve never heard you cogently describe how eliminating options makes sense without broadening the pool of available options first. If you cannot respond, please be adult enough to admit that. Calling the argument ridiculous, without engaging it, is childish and pointless.

    “The wreckers really piss me off.”

    Now, here’s where your caution to me and others to broaden our world view doesn’t make sense coming from someone who’s supposedly concerned with the “root.” The “wreckers” are the economic conditions that influence those women who do not want to be in the sex industry to enter into it (reminder: there are women in the sex industry who choose to be there even with other options; the issue lies with women who are forced by circumstances to do anything they don’t want to do, whether that’s sex work or anything else). How, exactly, are other women in the industry “wreckers?” Ren didn’t create the circumstances that influenced anyone’s decision to be part of the industry. Her involvement has had exactly zero effect in that regard, and if you’ve kept up with her site, you’ll note that she’s had a positive effect in helping women out.

    “I understand that for you and others like you the status quo is comfortable. All I’m saying is that others suffer for your supposed ‘comfort’…”

    How, exactly, are women in sex work suffering for my or other women’s comfort? Pointing a finger at any woman who’s not economically deprived and claiming that it’s her fault other women are is absurd, especially where you have no idea of what individual women’s contributions are. Downward-mobility feminism isn’t feminism, of course – it’s patriarchy in disguise, shaming women for aspiring to things to which men feel entitled. By allying with the patriarchy in this respect, you help maintain our current second-class status quo. Nice work.

  53. No, I won’t remove the link. Why? Well, most of the women who work for JM actually speak very highly of them. Hard to imagine? Maybe, but oddly enough, when they say it, I beleive them.

    As for exploitive? Well, here is when I think it is exploitive. When a woman says she feels she is being exploited in a way she dislikes or by someone other than herself. That’s when. In that sense, I think a woman posing in a suit for a Target add can be just as exploited as a gal in puke porn. The same way anyone can be exploited.

    There is no question I see the porn industry differently than a lot of people. It’s true, I do. I apparently look at a lot of things differently than other people, and I can live with that. I don’t find too many things done consentingly offensive, or if I do, I don’t feel as though I am in a place to judge them.

    Shrug.

    Okay, so its symptom, the symptom the whole world seemingly dwells on all the damn time because fucking is involved, and things that really personally squick them out are involved. I have my on thoughts on symptoms, really, and insist still you can see a hell of a lot more hate towards women and violence inflicted on them and crap messages about them in mainstream popular media than in porn…but those people aren’t fucking.

    Sex makes it all so different somehow, and perhaps because I have the attitudes on sex that I do, I will forever and always see it differently.

    I can live with that too.

  54. Apostate,

    But you said it’s exploitative, so ok. I’ll let it go at that, because that seems to indicate you’d be just as happy to see this sort of thing die down as I would. And if that’s the case, will you remove the link from your sidebar? Please don’t take this as blackmail, or even a demand. I’m simply honestly curious. You seem to have acknowledged that it’s exploitative. To me, that entails lack of support for it, which isn’t what having it on your sidebar would indicate.

    There’s a bit of a difference between what Ren said and what you are saying she said. She said it can be exploitative.

    Even though the stuff on that link don’t appear to be my idea of a good time, I appreciate being able to go to Ren’s site and see some links that have already been vetted by someone I know. When these conversations about certain kinds of porn arise, I want to know exactly what’s being discussed. Ren can say, “You can check it out through this link on my blog.” I can see what a particular practice entails without having to google and go through a bajillion sites featuring porn that I don’t want to examine.

    She doesn’t try to pretty it up or (claim that one needs to) make excuses for the content on those sites. I can judge it for myself.

  55. Bint, no offense, but Ren and I can communicate without your intervention.

  56. Two comments, one from Ren and the other from Octo, were caught in spam, but they’re now recovered.

    Ren, fair enough, thanks for the explanation. I don’t, of course, really care one way or the other if you have that link on your sidebar — I was just curious.

    See, for me, it’s not about the fucking. I know it is for some people, but do me the justice of seeing that that’s not why I get worked up about it.

  57. Apostate,

    I’m not trying to intervene. I’m simply adding another view. I’m explaining why it isn’t necessarily true that having that link on her sidebar means she’s supporting everything depicted on the site.

    What having that link on her site indicates isn’t the same to all who view it. Lots of women have links on their blogs even though they don’t necessarily support everything that’s being expressed on them. Why should a link to porn be viewed any differently?

  58. apostate:

    I’m not attempting to “box” you here or on my blog. And yes, I understand it is not the fucking you object to. My thing here is that porn is constantly targeted for scrutiny for anti woman attitudes, and Other Media is barely touched…and sorry, but I think a huge part of why that is is not because porn is More Anti Woman, but because people are fucking. This does not necessarily apply to you, but in a general sense…oh yes indeed, I think that has a whole lot to do with it.

  59. [...] The Vomitorium [...]

  60. Apostate – thank you:
    Apostate: So what if I do have a puke fetish? I don’t actually, but I do like rough oral, and well, puke happens. I don’t like scat or age play either, but I do think adults who are consenting should be able to do it, even film or photograph it for other like minded folk. I know jews with nazi fetishes, and yep, it’s odd, but…

    Hey, I’ve said before the sex industry can be ugly and exploitive. That I’ve never denied. But I don’t believe in regulating content done by consenting people because yep, sure enough, people have ugly mean sides, and I think they should be allowed to express them, even in a sexual context, even if other people don’t like it.

    apostate // Sep 23rd 2007 at 11:16 am

    Ren, you keep missing where I say I don’t want to regulate or ban it. It’s a symptom. I can’t and won’t be nonjudgmental about people who use it and like it, because it reveals (to me, quite clearly) unhealthy hatred of a class of people.

    But you said it’s exploitative, so ok. I’ll let it go at that, because that seems to indicate you’d be just as happy to see this sort of thing die down as I would. And if that’s the case, will you remove the link from your sidebar? Please don’t take this as blackmail, or even a demand. I’m simply honestly curious. You seem to have acknowledged that it’s exploitative. To me, that entails lack of support for it, which isn’t what having it on your sidebar would indicate. I’M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD REMOVE IT, just asking a question.

    To me, it matters that people do what they like doing, or at least don’t have to do things that are harmful, unenjoyable or contrary to their natures, just to be able to pay the rent. That applies as much to menial work as to disagreeable porn.

    You also miss where I say that it’s not so much me projecting my own tastes as being unable to imagine (I have a good imagination) that something like puking is fun for the woman. If it is, fine. But I have a difficult time believing that.

    And I do care if the woman enjoys herself. You have said multiple times that you would do what you do without being paid for it, that you have in fact, done so. And I am glad that that’s the case, and am perfectly willing to forget the politics of it — because you like doing it is reason enough for you to do it.

    But still, I would like to see men’s desire for these degrading things disappear, just as I would like to see white people’s hatred of black people disappear. Too much to ask? Maybe. But then, so are all ideals.

    And ren? “My thing here is that porn is constantly targeted for scrutiny for anti woman attitudes, and Other Media is barely touched…and sorry, but I think a huge part of why that is is not because porn is More Anti Woman, but because people are fucking.

    All media is similarly scrutinised with feminist analysis for its mysoginist portrayal of women by feminists. You seem to think that it’s the depiction of fucking that generates the scutiny for anti women atitudes – am I right? You seem to be hopping on that “all radfems are ‘prudes’ bandwaggon. If so, you’re wrong.

    And I’m not about to be back-footted into that argument cupcake. It’s far, far too old and meaningless.

  61. we are all animals. even the women. it may be hard to believe, and hard to understand, but we are all geared towards instincts and survival mechanisms. we are all killers, deep down inside. this type of stuff is typical. i don’t consent, or agree with any of it, but it is almost to be expected.

    why must we hold ourselves up to these pillars of gods that we fabricate? why do we expect our people to behave like puritans? does this stuff really surprise you?

  62. I don’t even want to ban, because like I said, it’s just a symptom, not the main problem. The main problem is that men, for whatever reasons, want to see this crap. That’s what we have to fix, which will remove the demand and the supply.

    Please. The main problem is that some men…. And potentially even some women.

    But saying men implies all men which is just as wrong as any gross sweeping generalization. It doesn’t help anyone.

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