I’ve disapproved in the past of those who voted for Nader rather than a sensible Democratic candidate, even if he was centrist.
Until recently, I’ve wholeheartedly agreed that all Obama supporters need to vote for Hillary and vice versa, depending on whoever is the Democratic candidate. We need to beat McCain and that’s paramount.
My very intelligent husband has disagreed with me and said that unless we call the Democratic party to account for selling us out time and time again, if we go on electing them no matter how many fundamental values they compromise, they won’t work for us and they don’t deserve our vote.
I finally agree.
I’m still very glad that I won’t have to follow through this recently formed moral conviction by actually letting a Republican win because I’m angry at the party I would normally support. That’s hard to do. But I believe it would be pretty hard for me to vote for Obama in good conscience.
I was reading the primary results today and came across this comment, showcased on the Washington Post blog which had a roundup of reactions: “infuse said, “By Friday I predict that more than enough of the superdelegates will have endorsed Barack Obama to end the insanity. Let the snake writhe about with no chance of recovery. It’s head has been cut off.” [emphasis mine.] Let me add that I didn’t wander over to this round-up by force of habit. I don’t read the Washington Post. This round-up was the ONLY headline from a news outlet reporting on the primaries that I could find on Google News this morning.
Andrew Sullivan today gleefully quoted a “college senior”: “Hillz is now that person at the party who’s had 6 too many jello shots, is talking abnormally loudly and is incapable of understanding the fact that she has overstayed her welcome. And she’s starting to hiccup. C’mon Hillz, let’s get your coat and we’ll walk with you to the door…”
Good fucking grief. Are there any ways left of shaming and insulting a brilliant woman running for president?
And then Reclusive Leftist removed what few doubts were left. We can’t support Obama. This is not our party. This is the party of frat boys, and so is the other one.
If I could vote, I would vote for anyone but either of the two major party nominees. And as I can’t vote, I can vocally be a bad non-citizen, giving us all the gift of McCain. Fuck it. It’s not like Obama’s going to fix jack-shit anyway and with either one of them, we’ll get the likes of Roberts on the Supreme Court.
So be it.
Filed under: Feminism, Socio-Political
You’re not going to support Obama because … other men are assholes (Andrew Sullivan? Asshole? No! Next you’ll be telling me that Chris Matthews doesn’t hold women in the highest esteem)?
I’ve been an Obama guy since day one (since well before day one, actually), but I’ve also firmly been in the “support whomever the nominee” camp since day one. It’s obviously easy for me to say it, because my commitment isn’t being tested; it’s also easy for me because, in spite of the growing vitriol in this primary I still genuinely like both Clinton and Obama (if Richardson had become the nominee, then I’d have to swallow, but I’d still be voting for him easy).
A McCain presidency means no more abortion rights. I doubt the message that anyone in America will receive from his election is that Obama’s hedging on parental consent laws for 12 year olds is unacceptable. Do I agree with you policy wise on the matter? Hell yes. But if your goal is to send a tactical message about what position the Dems ought to take on abortion, turning the uterus into a warden of the state isn’t going to accomplish your goal.
But don’t take my word for it. This is the wikipedia profile for Judge Diane Wood, 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, Professor at U. Chicago (I met her while prospying — nice person) and thus a colleague of Obama’s on the faculty there, and front runner for a Supreme Court nomination if Obama wins the Presidency. You’ll note she clerked for Blackmun just three years after he wrote the majority opinion Roe v. Wade.
And this is the wikipedia entry for Judge Edith Jones, 5th Circuit Court of Appeals and a McCain prospect for the high court. She recently described Roe v. Wade as an “exercise of raw judicial power” and would be the 5th vote to overturn Roe outright.
Think about Wood. And think about Jones. And tell me there’s no difference.
I agree with that sentiment – but I make a distinction between Congress and the President. Making the Dems lose congress for selling out and having no spine is all well and good and may get some change going. But I simply cannot in good conscience give the power of the executive to the Republicans – EVER. There’s federal judges to consider – they are appointed for life, so that can matter 30 years from now, when no one even remembers who was president today. That alone is enough not to ever let an R get the office of president. But beyond that, there’s the fact that the government is fucked from the top on down in all of the executive agencies when there’s an R in there – Bush has done damage that may take decades to fix. Losing Congress is punishment enough. Give the Rs the White House, especially after 8 years of Bush, and you’re killing the patient (all of us) to cure the problem with the Dem party. And you’ll probably just end up with a bunch of spineless Dems who think they need to act like Repugs to get elected.
You both have good points and I used to think exactly these things. But I’m less convinced now and also very very glad that I won’t actually have to be tested.
I have to add that I really have lost hope for this country. We aren’t going to get real change until we ask for it. We’re already headed down a destructive path and the course is NOT going to be reversed by a Democratic president. At best, s/he will not do even more damage — but at this point, that hardly matters.
The economy, the war, healthcare, people’s jobs, the middle class, civil rights — it’s all already lost.
And abortion rights are a joke. We effectively already don’t have Roe v. Wade. I’m not sure that if it’s overturned, it will make all that much of a difference. It will turn it over to the states and most states are already acting in accordance with that, even if officially, Roe still applies to them. About 90% counties in the U.S. don’t provide abortion services. The rest are losing funding and having to follow more regulations. None of this has been prevented by the Supreme Court.
We obviously need to lose more rights, have white people start to get arrested for nothing and held without charge, for women in the middle class to lose their fundamental rights, for everyone to lose their jobs and homes, and then see how the country wakes up. We need to wake up and vote in real progressives, not corporate whores.
“…you’ll probably just end up with a bunch of spineless Dems who think they need to act like Repugs to get elected…” Disgusted Beyond Belief.
I wish I did not believe that but I so do! I am no longer as anti-republican as I used to be and my reasons are personal intellectual growth. I find myself agreeing with Ayaan Hirsi Ali from the right on many points as to what is fatally wrong with leftist apologists in terms of sacrifising blunt truths in the name of political correctness and with welfare oriented policies in general. I fell in love too, with the “classic republican” or the only “seeming democrat” among the republican nominees i.e. Ron Paul.
It is ironic that my right bent is making an appearance just when the “right” is at its worse ever but that, in and of itself, is not reason for me not to feel what I feel.
Then again, maybe it will not really matter and armageddon is just around the corner with the current inner republican gung ho set having openly become mirror images of gun weilding, holy righteous ideology spouting Mullahs of Islam.
“A McCain presidency means no more abortion rights.”
Oh yay, it’s the “you HAVE to vote for us or they’ll overturn Roe argument.” As if I haven’t heard that one for 20 years.
The Dems have done a bang up job supporting abortion rights, haven’t they? I remember their valiant fillibuster of Alito well. Oh, and the way they supported NARAL when that group attempted to challenge Roberts? Yes, that was a brilliant moment in Dem history.
Next you’ll be telling me: “But this is the most important election, eva!” Please. I’m done carrying water for a party who doesn’t give a damn about their own base.
Well, the only thing about your moral conviction is that it would actually result in letting a Republican win. How that sends any worthwhile messages to Democrats, other than to be more Republican, is confusing to me.
I think it’s overly dramatic to say that “The economy, the war, healthcare, people’s jobs, the middle class, civil rights — it’s all already lost.” The middle class didn’t feel that way during Bill’s administration, although healthcare has always been a joke and civil rights have a long way to go. If we give up on incremental steps policitally, then we give up period, because that’s the kind of improvement possible given the system we have and “revolution” or “change” as promised by talking heads is just that much bullshit.
I will absolutely vote for the democrat no matter who that is. Two reasons:
1) I have much less hope that any politician will ever be someone I just totally adore; they will all always be politicians. I do not think that if the Dems continue to lose they’ll magically be able to (or inclined to) come up with someone fabulously super-progressive. I just don’t have a high estimation of what is possible in this realm, and am not willing to take 4 more years of Bushies Inc. in the hope that such a thing will happen. Much more of the current direction and there won’t be much of a country left to lead anyway.
2) In my 23 years of voting life, I have “voted against” people far far FAR more often than I have “voted for” someone. Rarely is there ANYBODY I want to vote FOR.
Living in Louisiana, I can give a wonderfully extreme example of this strategy — when due to weirnesses of our open primary system, we wound up with two appalling candidates in a runoff for governor of the state. Former grand-dragon of the KKK and still white supremacist David Duke, or crook liar cheat Edwin Edwards. I had to hold my nose and vote for the crook, because the other option was just SO abhorrent. Given the way the past 8 years have gone in the U.S., I see a continuation of that as just about as bad as the david-duke option. Some people just have to be STOPPED and failing to do so in hopes of making a point is what my mother would have called “cutting off your nose to spite your face”.
So in this case, assuming Obama is the candidate, I won’t really be voting for Obama, I will be voting against McCain, the man who is way way more anti-gay and anti-choice and anti-everything-I-am-and-believe-in than Obama. And I do believe his supreme court choices would be worse. I like Hillary, and Obama’s policies are WAY WAY closer to hers than are McCain’s. They are NOT just the same, they are at different places on a continuum even if neither is as far left as I’d like. I do remember people saying this same sort of thing about Bush v. Gore in 2000, that they’re both really the same, so why not make a point by voting for Nader. Does anyone now believe that nothing would have been different had Gore been elected? (oh, what if somebody SMART had been at the helm for 9/11?)
People trying to “make a point” a “stand on principle” got us George W. Bush. “Voting against” is a totally valid strategy.
Your comment reminded me of this exchange in the 1930s, after the New Deal was in full swing:
“Has FDR carried out the socialist agenda in America?”
“Yes, he has — on a stretcher.” — Norman Thomas, head of the Socialist Party of America
That being said, while I used to be sympathetic to the “liberals should stop defending Roe, it’s moribund anyway”, I was set straight by Jack Balkin. And particularly given your “lose rights now so we can gain them later” paradigm, giving up on the executive branch is a really bad idea because (as DBB notes) the judges McCain puts on the bench will still be there even after we experience buyer’s remorse. Also, I’d say that this administration is kind of filling the role of making people realize “oh FUCK, conservatism really does suck.” The moment you’re looking for is today, when we have a broad public consensus that the GOP position on basically every issue is wrong. If we don’t seize the moment now, we might never get a chance to reverse the tide.
And finally, I think not voting for Obama because you hope a McCain presidency will finally usher in an era of apocalyptic doom which will spark progressive reforms is a bad reason (not the least of which post-apocalypse societies are not usually fertile ground for liberalism — even if conservatism is what brought it on in the first place).
Calliopejane, your reasoning was mine a month ago. Obviously, I still think it’s pretty solid reasoning.
David, you’re probably right.
I’m glad I don’t actually have to make a choice. If I did, I might just go for Cynthia McKinney/Green Party.
A: in a way I kind of envy you. I’m still up in the air about my choice. Strong chance that the one I will make will get me tossed out of liberal bloglandia.
My recommendation (as a citizen of the earth living in a part of the world severely affected by the policies of the Great and Mighty Empire of the Americas) if you’re not in a swing state vote Nader (since hes left). If in a swing state vote Democrat..
Anyway Check out the candidates on the political Compass. See how relatively close the Dems are to Mccain(Mccain is more authoratarian but In terms of traditional the Left-Right the Dems are pretty close to the the Republicans) and how far off Nader is from the rest of the pack.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008
I used to think like you all do, that a protest vote against the Democratic Party was a vote for the Republicans. At this point, I guess I have to say, “not anymore.” Roe was dead as soon as Samuel Alito was confirmed. It may still be be gasping, but stick a fork in it, because, effectively, it’s over.
But here’s a challenge. Why don’t we just start trying to do what so many courageous women did before us and put our activism where our mouths are. Let’s stop expecting the Supreme Court to do our dirty work for us. We’ll only be making a compromise with the inevitable if we stand for using the logic “the courts will protect us.” I’m not for giving the courts a voice anymore, I’m not for waiting for the inevitable, I want a Constitutional Amendment either cementing in the privacy guarantee implied in the spirit of the 4th OR I want a Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing a woman’s right to make her own reproductive choices.
It seems to me that all liberals do anymore is whine that they have to do a certain think or they might lose something. Sure, that could happen because that’s LIFE, life is risk. But too many liberals are afraid to fight for anything anymore. Sure, we could lose … for a while. But we’ll win eventually. I don’t think that Alice Paul, or Carrie Chapman Catt or Mabel Vernon would be so easily deterred.
So I’m not going to vote for the Democrats just to protect choice. I don’t think they protect. I really believe Obama would throw it under the bus the first chance he has to trade it for something he really wants regardless of NARAL thinks. They’ve been giving their endorsement to lip-service politicians for years. I’m not going to be held hostage by that anymore.
I wrote and posted this essay on Taylor Marsh….
Boycotting Obama Will Lead to Famine, Armaggeddon, Government-Controlled Uteruses, and other Scare Tactics
We have seen a lot of desperate Democrats suddenly scrambling to “unify” with Clinton’s supporters, now that they realize that their snowjob of an election has caused turmoil and will lead to an Obama boycott in November. The classic response to our anger says that we need to relax, take a deep breath, not let emotions cloud judgment, and to think about Roe, your uterus, Third World uteruses, Iraq, thousands of dying soldiers, the economy, Bush III, and many other desperate pro-Obama talking points designed to crush the boycott and instill fear. Well, here’s my answer (disclaimer: I do not have a uterus).
First of all, I do not need to clear my head and take a deep breath. I did not start voting yesterday, unlike many of Obama’s supporters. Instead, I am a lifetime Democrat, and I have been voting for Democrats locally, state-wide, and nationally since the mid-80s. I am very experienced having my candidate lose, but then moving on to support the party ticket. In past primaries, for example, I voted for Dean, Bradley, and Jesse Jackson (twice!). I get the idea of party unity, so stop treating me like a kid.
Second, my vote in November goes beyond the liberal “issues” you describe: it protests liberal hypocrisy. The party espouses an equality rhetoric but has been completely dishonest and contradictory during this election. The party has bashed poor white people and people whose last names are Clinton. The party has has ignored Latino voters because recognizing them challenges the “only racists vote for Clinton script.” The party has invented claims of racial injustice to demonize the Clintons. The party has ridiculed “uneducated” voters, even though Democrats supposedly represent disadvantaged people. Male party members and liberal media have constantly called for Clinton to drop out — starting after Iowa — in order to place an aura of doubt around her campaign. The party has ignored voters in Florida and Michigan in order to legitimize Howard Dean’s bad judgment. The party has completely ignored or even denied the sexist treatment of Clinton, while responding with absolute venom to any real or imagined “racism” directed towards Obama. The party has allowed Obama to wear multiple racial hats — the nonracial black man, the just black enough to be an historic black president, and the black racial victim –- to secure votes. If Clinton deviates even slightly from a prior script, she is portrayed as a horrible witch who would do “anything to get elected.” I refuse to join this madness.
In April, Obama pranced around and described Clinton as “Annie Oakley” gunning her way through Pennsylvania for votes. But when he came out looking like Steve Urkel bowling and drinking Yuengling for votes in the same state, the media and party ate it up — another “precious” Obama moment. Recently, CNN.COM posted footage of some mesmerized journalist covering Obama’s jeans. Why should I have to endorse this mayhem?
Third, I am unmoved by the progressive issues that the pro-Obama side uses to scare us into voting for him. But you got to love “the horror”: If you vote for McCain or don’t vote for Obama, the Supreme Court will overrule Roe, thousands of men and women will die in Iraq, poor people will remain poor, the environment will decline, we will not achieve peace on earth and domestic tranquility, and you will deprive “our children” from having a “great country.” I feel a tear coming!
These are just Karl Rovian “red alerts.” Obama is not entitled to our votes. He did not earn my loyalty. Whatever loyalty the party had from me prior to this election has been depleted. Earlier on when we wanted to discuss progressive issues, the Obama camp and the media silenced our efforts and instead focused on the big rock star pep rallies, Obamania, Camelot, weeping college students, and a host of other unimportant concerns. People could not tell us specifically why they supported him, but they knew that he was the best and that he would bring “change.” They told us that we and Clinton were cold and unhopeful and that emotions and inspiration were more important. Clinton was a mere “policy wonk,” while Obama made people “feel good again.” Well, enjoy your Hallmark moments and stop being two-faced. Suddenly, you want to talk about the issues because it benefits Obama. Earth to my fellow Democrats: Obama’s success does not dictate the way I vote.
I am still focused on issues, but topics beyond your “red scare” alerts are important to me as well. My vote responds to a party of hypocrites who dismiss loyal Democrats, bash older folks and women, and manipulate race – while calling it “progressive.” My protest is about not wanting to be a part of a vote that legitimizes sexism. I do not wish to condone the younger Democrats’ misunderstanding of the Republican witch hunts that hurt all Democrats in the past — what they call “Clinton scandals,” when every honst person recalls them as Ken Starr scandals! Where was the “education” on this issue by party veterans? The DNC rushes to bash McCain for his 100 years comment, which reputable entities like Factcheck.org say was not even true, but Clinton is misportrayed abundantly and all we get is silence. Party leadership and the media sharply denounce anything that could negatively impact Obama. They describe legitimate and fair criticism of him as racist, mean-spirited, evil, or “Clinton politics.” Clearly the party leadership has determined that anytime he looks weak, the “boys” will endorse him or call for Clinton to leave because she is “hurting the party” and “kneecapping” the “first viable black presidential candidate” – as if Clinton alone should bear responsibility for remedying the country’s history of racism which has kept people of color out of high office. Well, party leadership and media, you made these rules; suffer the consequences. To paraphrase Obama, don’t tell me my disgust with your behavior doesn’t matter. Don’t tell me sexism doesn’t matter. Don’t tell me liberal hypocrisy doesn’t matter. Don’t tell me fake racial politics doesn’t matter. Don’t tell me I must vote for Obama in order to be a “real” Democrat. If being a real Democrat means bashing women, the poor, and the elderly, manipulating race, ignoring Latinos, and stifling dissent, then I respectfully resign my membership! Achieving justice requires sacrifice, brutal honesty, and passionate commitment. I will not “endorse anything to get a Democrat elected,” and neither should you.
– A Black Man Supporting Hillary Clinton and the Women Who Want More…..
[...] ‘F[**]k Unity’found at The Apostte: “I’ve disapproved in the past of those who voted for Nader rather than a sensible Democratic candidate, even if he was centrist. Until recently, I’ve wholeheartedly agreed that all Obama supporters need to vote for Hillary and vice versa, depending on whoever is the Democratic candidate. We need to beat McCain and that’s paramount. [...]