Why Honor Killings Are A Religious Issue

It’s always nice to have white people speak for you and over your experience. Authoritatively.

Much to my disappointment, this white American who has recently moved to the Middle East, is using her platform on a “big feminist blog” to tell people that honor killings really have nothing to do with religion. I point out that she’s a white American because white people have an elevated status in the Middle East and in other majority-brown countries. In case readers need reminding, I spent 20 of my 25 years — 20 years of my life — in Saudi Arabia, as a third (or fourth, or fifth) class non-citizen expatriate. The hierarchy was Saudis first, white people second and everyone else after. I was paid less, as a matter of policy, than white people and was ultimately fired so a white person could replace me.

So it’s not “reverse racism” that makes me call out the race of the person writing this post defending Islam; it just stings that people who are privileged because of their skin color even in countries that are supposed to be more hospitable to brown people, turn around and defend those brown people because their experience is positive.

OF COURSE your experience is positive. You’re white.

Why should what I say matters? After all, I’m only a brown woman who spent most of her life trapped against her will in a Middle Eastern theocratic dictatorship who left Islam and her family seeking freedom and never will be sure if it’s safe to meet her parents because they might kill her.

Let me repeat that just so we’re clear. No matter how many times my parents tell me they love me and accept my new life — and they have started to do that recently — I can’t let myself forget that many before me have been fooled by this display of affection and have agreed to see their parents, and then gotten murdered in cold blood.

Let me repeat that one more time just so everyone gets it. I am afraid my parents will kill me to cleanse their honor.

I know they love me. I know they care about me. And I know that that doesn’t matter one bit. The only thing that matters is that I shamed them by growing legs and acting like I was an autonomous human person.

But sure — if an American liberal goes on a feminist blog that promised to lend its platform to diverse, especially non-white, marginalized voices and tells everyone that religion is actually innocent, that’s probably the truth. What does Saudi Arabia have to do with Islam anyway? They might order their government and every detail of their life by Islam, but Islam doesn’t have anything to do with it really. No, that’s just Islamophobic propaganda trying to smear Islam. Pakistan might have been created in the name of Islam, and its society structured to support an explicitly Islamic lifestyle, and its constitution might be Islamic, but hey! Nothing to do with Islam, not really. Not if liberals tell you so.

All the traditional Muslims (hint: not the ones born in Utah) might think they’re following Islamic guidelines and strict rules derived from the sunnah when they treat their sons differently from their daughters and restrict the freedom of women, but if liberals think that’s kind of off and they want to make false-to-fact claims about equality between the sexes in Islam, then all those traditional Muslims — like my parents — are simply delusional.

What does honor killing have to do with a patriarchal religion like Islam?

Well, let me put this in simple terms because it’s very difficult for liberals to grasp basic facts sometimes when brown people are involved. Islam is a patriarchal religion. Fact. Islam is misogynistic. Fact. Islam pathologizes sex. Fact. Islam subordinates women to men. Fact.

“Islam” and “culture” are not two separate things. They are interconnected and arise out of and in relation to each other. Islam IS Arab culture, to a very great degree. Arab culture IS Islam to a very great degree. The one supports and reinforces the other. Religion codifies culture. Such is the case with all religions and cultures. Most cultures have been or are misogynistic and religion is one of the biggest tools used to keep misogynistic practices in place. In other words, if a society is misogynistic, the religion of that society enforces the misogyny.

Muslim societies are largely misogynistic, in large part because of Islam. Islam prevents pro-woman progress, just as other patriarchal religions in their time have prevented pro-woman progress. Islam also institutionalizes and entrenches misogynistic beliefs and practices. Islam’s hold on people’s behavior and consciences is strong enough that all of this may as well be codified and put on the books as written law. The fact that it sometimes isn’t is meaningless. Unless you have lived a thousand daily details of Islamic regulation of your life and body as a woman, you have no idea how deeply embedded Islamic misogyny is in our lives.

Misogyny — hatred of women — and the shame of “illicit” sex, is what is behind honor killings. If a society’s social morality is being derived from a religion and they consistently invoke the religion when doing something that is completely in line with the ethos of that religion — and misogyny and sexual shame are in line with the ethos of Islam, as lived and experienced by millions of Muslim women not born in Utah– then that action is connected to the religion. No matter how much liberals want to tell you otherwise, they are simply full of shit.

And let’s call them honor killings. Let’s not pretend that the notion of male honor is not typical of and indicative of patriarchal societies, which Islam seems to consistently produce (what a surprise, right? A patriarchal religion produces, without exception, patriarchal societies in which men’s honor is paramount, even over women’s lives). Let’s not try to whitewash this issue — it’s about honor. Why pretend it’s not about honor? To me, it underlines and emphasizes how disgusting and immoral these crimes are, how ironic their evil is. Calling it an honorless crime is a trick, a verbal slight-of-hand coined by one Ali Eteraz, a bundle of Muslim Male Privilege and misogyny.

But hey! What do I know? I merely spent most of my goddamned life in the birthplace of Islam, 45 minutes away from goddamned Mecca. What the fuck do I know? Let’s have the white ladies lecture us about what is and isn’t Islam. Let’s let them enlighten us on how Islam liberates women.

I almost don’t want to use my “feminism” tag on this post. For what is feminism to me? Feminists of the third wave are busy courting Muslim-apologists born in Utah and white feminists who move to the Middle East with their Arab boyfriends. Who cares that there are women like me trying to connect feminism to their Islamic backgrounds, hell, who found their strength in feminism to be able to escape, to even want to escape? Who cares that I’m part of a mostly silent minority of an already severely oppressed class? Who cares that I have a blog on which I’m writing about things that feminists are supposed to care about?

Everyone knows it’s those outspoken practicing Muslim women who’re in real danger. I’d like to know the last time my sister or my mother — both good little Muslimahs — did something that put their lives in jeopardy. I’d also like to know when they last let a feminist sentiment escape their pious lips. But doubtless, their points of view — their patriarchy-conformist points of view — would be more welcome on feminist blogs than my lived experience of patriarchal Islamic oppression.

Whither feminism?

Fuck this.

And they wonder why Ayaan Hirsi Ali works for the Enterprise Institute.

46 Responses

  1. “Calling it an honorless crime is a trick, a verbal slight-of-hand “ …absolutely! along the exact same lines as calling Creationism “Intelligent Design” and equally brilliant as a moniker that demphasizes and distorts the very truth and reality it is supposed to represent as a label….evil geniuses at work here – both from the evangelical right and the pusillanimous left.

    Reminds me also of Avi Lewis’s outright dismissal of Ayaan’s criticism of Islam…..to him she was just a mouthpiece for the American Right (even as she all her political life stood solidly behind women’s rights and gay rights) For his ilk the need to shun the label of intolerance is supreme….more so than fighting any actual intolerance….. And they wonder why Ayaan Hirsi Ali works for the Enterprise Institute.

  2. Not trying to be argumentative, but I’m wondering what you make of those religious Muslims who do in fact believe in equal educational opportunities for their daughters, and in general, treat them equal to their sons. Do you believe they do so in spite of their religious upbringing, or that they dont exist? I say this because my grandfather was an extremely religious man, but absolutely insisted that his daughters be educated, with the result that 2 of them are professors in Pakistan today, and one (my mother) is a physician. And he was not a rich man – worked for the government and died while collecting a petty pension.

    Maybe we all extrapolate from our personal experiences. Perhaps if I had gone through what you went through, I would be a lot less forgiving of religion as well.

  3. Muse, sigh. Don’t you get it that I believe Islam to be simply false on its merits? You’ve read enough of my writing to hopefully begin to see that. It’s not just Islam either — I see all religions as clearly of fallible human origins.

    My experience informs my anger, not my intellectual stances.

    You got lucky in your experience, but that doesn’t make your religion any truer.

    My parents also very strongly believe in education and wanted to educate me and my sister — just couldn’t figure out how to do it without sending me somewhere where they couldn’t supervise me. Saudi Arabia, at that time, didn’t allow expatriates to study in Saudi beyond high school. My brother was sent to the United States. I wasn’t. My sister wasn’t.

    They didn’t mean to be unfair. Girls are just different, you see.

    My parents are not evil. They’re extremely conventional, moderately educated, middle class Punjabis. Very ordinary people. If you met them at a dinner party, you’d probably get along just fine with them.

    But the roots of the religion go deep and wide.

    I don’t know your grandfather and can’t judge him for his sexist ideas about women. But I have no doubt in my own mind that he carried around just as many outdated notions of morality for women as my parents do – his daughters simply never gave him a reason to be outraged.

  4. OK fair enough, not trying to make you see “the light” or trying to convert you.

  5. Muse, sorry, expanded on my response while you were commenting the second time. Forgot to respond to your question the first time. See above.

    I should also add that I do believe progressive Muslims are progressive in spite of Islam – or, put it this way. Everyone finds in Islam what they want to find.

  6. apostate, such a very well-done post. Thank you for posting the truth from your heart; from your eyes and from your life.

    I lived in Asmara, Eritrea for 4 years and at the time it was about 50/50 mulsim and christian. I am so glad I was able to see that in person over a number of years and see it from eyes of a child. Those who wish to make excuses for those who use religion to abuse women and children are not feminists, they are enablers.

    In my experience, nothing is quite as toxic as those fundamentalist Islamic beliefs. Some fundamentalist Christians share some toxic beliefs. Toxic religious beliefs take away freedom. Toxic religious beliefs are abusive. I covered some, but not all of the toxic beliefs of Christians in my book titled “The Brain God Gave Me.” Perhaps it would not be too radical for your coffee table, unless of course zealots drop in.

  7. Thanks, Roxie. I will certainly add your book to my list!

  8. Apostate, a brave post. Your voice is important and I wish more widely sought. You’ve got the authority to make points like the following and I personally am listenting:

    ” What does Saudi Arabia have to do with Islam anyway? They might order their government and every detail of their life by Islam, but Islam doesn’t have anything to do with it really. No, that’s just Islamophobic propaganda trying to smear Islam. Pakistan might have been created in the name of Islam, and its society structured to support an explicitly Islamic lifestyle, and its constitution might be Islamic, but hey! Nothing to do with Islam, not really. Not if liberals tell you so.”

  9. Yesterday (July 2nd) there was yet another disgusting honor killing in my country, Norway.
    When this is debated here, some people say that this is a “return to medieval times”. They probably think honor killings of women was common then.

    This is totally wrong. In fact, Norwegian women have never suffered like muslim women, not when Christianity dominated Norway, and not before Christianity.

    A thousand years ago, in the time of the Vikings, Norway was a “somewhat violent place”. It was a society with a weak state and strong honor driven extended families. It was common to seek revenge and regain you honor by killing people, for example if a woman in the family had done the deed with the wrong guy.

    However, the common law clearly stated: Revenge (honor) could only be sought “against an armed man”. Killing a woman (child or old person) would make the killer lose all honor and become an outlaw. Which meant anyone could kill him without fearing reprisals from relatives.

    Honor killings – ridiculous!

  10. Apostate, funnily enough, I’m in the middle of writing a post about being a privileged white expat (with an extra dose of “Slavic slut” BS on the side).

    I don’t believe that honour killings are entirely irreligious, I said that there is a struggle within the religion on issues such as this. And provided links to people who, I believe, embody the positive side of this struggle.

    Religion, for me, is a complex issue. While I consider myself religious, I generally stay away from religious discussion and religious gatherings. I made a conscious decision when I realized that people within my own religion were slowly driving me to suicide.

    I’ve had enough bearded men tell me exactly what I’m worth. I’ve had to deal with the fact that someone very close to me was attacked for being a non-Muslim woman, by a Muslim man, because many Muslim men believe such women to be fair game.

    Then there is the other side of it. In my private e-mail, I’ve regularly gotten missives from made-up addresses: people telling me that I’m a “whore” for moving to the ME, that I’ll be “sorry,” that I need to be “fucked in all holes and dumped to the dogs,” that they are “watching [me],” that “God is watching [me] too.” Members of my own community try to shame me for being with a “black-assed” (read: Arab) man. The leader of a racist organization made threats against me, and those threats were later whitewashed and expunged for the sake of preserving his reputation. I’d love to live in Kiev with my lover, but I’m too afraid of him getting knifed for not looking white enough. The last time we were in Kiev together, I dyed my hair dark, so we would attract less attention as a couple.

    I’ve found myself stuck between a lot of different people, with a lot of different things on their mind.

    I don’t deny my white privilege, or your experiences. I can only hope that you will extend me the same courtesy, when I say that these issues for me are not simple, and not put words in my mouth (where exactly have I talked about “liberation,” for example? I believe that people should judge that for themselves.).

    I don’t speak for anyone, only for myself, and the people I consider friends. Some of those people are Muslim. Hell, I live in a Muslim household, and am very grateful for the hospitality. Doesn’t mean I don’t realize that for different people, things are different.

    As for honourless killings – it depends on what you consider to be the function of the language. Personally, I believe that calling them “honour crimes” can validate the viewpoint of the person committing the crime. It allows *them* power in defining such murder. But you can look at it either way.

  11. [...] A post you need to read (and that has nothing to do with Hillary or Obama) From Apostate: Why Honor Killings Are A Religious Issue. [...]

  12. Islam IS Arab culture, to a very great degree. Arab culture IS Islam to a very great degree. The one supports and reinforces the other. Religion codifies culture.

    Precisely. There is no ability to excise culture from religion. Look at the similarities between Islam and Orthodox Judaism or Christian sects that follow the Old Testament: they have very similar rituals and dogma because the Hebrews and the Philistines were culturally related (indeed, look at the linguistic similarities between Hebrew and Arabic; at times they’re indistinguishable).

  13. Thank you for speaking out against the Orwellian lie that Islam does not oppress women.

    I live in a U.S. college town that is home to a famously liberal (for its area) huge state supported university. The college paper regularly publishes women who argue that calling out religious based sexism is nothing more than religious bigotry. Mormonism and Islam are their noble causes now, but they would be equally noble and vociferous about the male ruled and politically powerful Catholic and Southern Baptist religions. And of course they also defend the college bookstore’s recent decision to sell Playboy, and the college paper’s use of Hooter’s ads in the online edition and the gruesome and fallacious anti-abortion campus wide blitzes.

    By defending both the men who exploit women and the men who punish women for being exploited by men, they do keep a temporary foothold for themselves and an illusion of equality in the affluent class most were born into. It’s only later they will be forced to realize that they will be women all their lives and that women are not equal in their or any other class in America.

  14. Rock on, Apostate!

  15. Along the lines of your post, I can’t stand it when feminists who are clueless about fundamentalist Christianity attempt to write about it (as Amanda at Pandagon does all the time) because they invariably fail to make crucial distinctions, especially about the powerlessness of women in fundamentalist Christianity compared with the dominance of men, and they end up invariably blaming fundamentalist Christian women for things they have no control over. Or they get into crap arguments that the women “chose” to be part of these groups, or whatever. I just wish they wouldn’t talk about things they don’t understand, they end up alienating women IN fundamentalism who are trying to find their way out.

  16. Honour Killing

    Honour killing and female infanticide come from Pagan-Hindu-Judeo-Christian traditions. Hindus idolise women as Goddesses on one hand, while downgrading them on the sly at the same time. There is nothing in the Holy Quran and the Hadiths that may encourage people to kill their daughters. Infact, Islam came to abolish the dark ages of Pagan- Hindu -Judeo- Christian traditions. Islam is a matter of choice and there is no compulsion at all. It is a misconception that forced marriage and honour killing are part of Muslim culture. Forced marriage, honour killing and genital mutilation are rare practices among migrant communities.

    Muslim migrants are worried about institutional racism, binge drinking, drug addiction, incivility, gun and knife crimes, high rate of abortions and teen age pregnancies. An average of 20 English girls under the age of 16 falls pregnant every day. Muslim parents do not want their children to be integrated into such barbarity. Muslim women feel torn between two cultures, thanks to the British education system with non-Muslim monolingual teachers. It makes their lives very confusing.

    The tragedy of forced marriage and honour killing could have been avoided if the poor girls were educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers. Educational attainment rises quite significantly if boys and girls are educated separately. The tragedies are an eye opener for all those Muslim parents who send their children to state schools where they are exposed to non-Muslim teachers who have no respect for Islamic faith and Muslim community and do not understand the needs and demands of the Muslim children. Muslim schools are crucial for Muslim children because western education makes a man/woman stupid.

    The hypocrisy of the Western society is clearly seen whereas an Australian Judge failed to jail nine males who admitted gang-raping a 10-year old aborigine girl in 2005, saying the victim probably agreed to have sex with them and a UNICEF Photo of the year shows, a bridegroom, 40, with his 11-year old bride in Afghanistan. In my opinion, a UNICEF photo of the year must show a nine year British girl having a baby and another photo showing a gang of teenage girls with anti-social behaviour and vomiting out side a pub, thanks to binge drinking. Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Muslim schools are the solutions and not a problem. They help to strengthen community cohesion, not undermine it. Muslim schools stand as shining beacons of light, serving as one of the most crucial factors which protect Muslim children from the onslaught of Eurocentricism, homosexuality, racism and secular values and traditions. They need to be well versed in Standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time they need to be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. Muslim schools are not only faith schools but also bilingual schools. Infact, bilingualism is an asset and not a problem as perceived by the British education system.

    There is a positive co-relation between language and culture. English language is associated with western culture. The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools but there are not enough schools to go by. The only alternative left is either British Government should introduce voucher system for parents to choose the school of their choice or designate all those state schools as Muslim community schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslims are in majority. Such schools may be handed over to Muslim educational Trusts or charities for their management. They are in a better position to educate Muslim children in accordance with their needs and demands. This demand is in accordance with the law of the land because there are state schools already managed by private companies. Muslim community is not asking for a favour. It is their legal right.

  17. Great post! I wrote an anti-islamic post about how the Islamic religion treated women abusively and I got a woman from Egypt who came over and ranted that I did not understand her religion and wasn’t a good feminist for calling the religion out on it’s bullshit. We argued back and forth until I just deleted the post and said to myself forget it. I think women are oppressed the world over, especially in the Middle East or where ever fundemental religions dominate the culture. But I had to wonder why she came to my blog to rant at me that I was not a good feminist and did not understand her religion. I think I understood the abuse it delivers to the women who must live under its dictates perfectly well. At any rate, you have every right to speak your truth.

  18. Frank, actually dishonor killings are believed to have their origins in misinterpretations of pre-Islamic Arab tribal codes.

    And, Apostate, I believe you when you say that you fear being killed if you return to your family. Stay strong.

    Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
    “Reclaiming Honor in Jordan”

  19. Frank, did you read the post you’re responding to? Because if you did, it sure doesn’t show.

    Apostate, thank you for this post. I’m here via Reclusive Leftist and am glad for the opportunity to learn from you. You and I are the same age. It makes me wonder if I had been in your shoes whether I would have had the strength to get out.

  20. “The tragedy of forced marriage and honour killing could have been avoided if the poor girls were educated in a single sex state funded Muslim schools by female Muslim teachers.”
    Frank

    What the hell are u talking about? The only way to stop these abuses is integration so we become cosncious of western liberals- not segregation, especially of the educational system. Your multicutural well meant nonesense is what has handed authority over to the Islamists which is why forced marriage rates are increasing- not decreasing, an amazing fact and indicative of how lack of integration is leading to further abuse of women.
    No compulsion in religion, in Islam? I can’t even be bothered to answer that. Try being murtad in Pakistan, go and try it. This is either a troll or a white convert.
    Listen, our needs as Muslim people in education are the same as everyone elses- to maximise our human potential- not maximization of your Islamist agenda at our expense. This post is trash and apostate probably won’t even waste her time to respond.
    A truly inept job to promote Islamism dressed up as multiculturalism. Sorry Frank, you are talking at least five years out of date.

  21. “An average of 20 English girls under the age of 16 falls pregnant every day. Muslim parents do not want their children to be integrated into such barbarity.”
    Frank

    Girls falling pregnant is ‘barbarity’?. And you are making recomendations on how we should be educated? I think i proved me point. I think YOU are barbaric and u deserve to get seriously smashed by our secret services cos i am sure u are Hez alTahrir.And u don’t know what parents want cos ure not even human to understand normal feelings.

  22. Ignore Frank, that’s just Iftikhar Ahmed. He runs a madrassa in London and is constantly spamming the entire net with reasons why educational apartheid is essential for Muslim girls in the UK. There’s no point in responding, he won’t come back. I suggest banning him if possible.

    On the subject, as I’ve been monitoring so-called ‘honour’ killings for http://www.stophonourkillings.com for five years, I have observed how wide the phenomenon is: Druze, Yezidi, Sikh, Hindu, Christian and Muslim women all live lives conditional upon obeying patriarchal norms; and a glimpse into history shows it was the same under the Roman Empire, where a honour killings were treated with impunity, which survived as a reduced sentence in Italian law until 1980 — yes, 1980. Honour killing is part of patriarchal society, particularly IMO patriarchal societies where women have no choice over their marriage.

    So, I do agree with Apostate, but if you cruise the right-wing blogs you can see that they routinely ascribe HK with Islam as if it is a form of religious duty which is absolutely unique to Muslim society. When we discuss HK its essential to challenge this viewpoint, while acknowledging that religion is one of the most potent forms of the patriarchal system that underpins the ideology of ‘honour’.

  23. PS: In the UK, one-third of honour killings are hindu/sikh. It’s important that the category of ‘honour’ killing is not restricted to Muslim women; women from other religions need the appropriate level of protection as well. It is already difficult to to convince police and social services to take their fears seriously because of the common association between Islam and HK.

  24. apostate, fantastic post.

    frank, you’re such an idiot. this sentence has to take the prize for one of the stupidest and most ignorant things i’ve ever read in my life:

    “Forced marriage, honour killing and genital mutilation are rare practices among migrant communities”.

    there were about 400 honour killings in just one province of pakistan in 2002. let’s not even talk about forced marriages! these are not rare nor just taking place in migrant communities.

    you think all the problems would be solved if muslim kids went to muslim schools? that’s what happens all over the middle east and in pakistan. doesn’t do jackshit for anyone. my muslim teacher, the one who taught us about the quran, scratched his balls throughout class or had a hard on half the time.

    i hate it when people like you, who’ve never lived a day as a woman, a muslim or both, in the middle east or south asia, come on in to offer solutions or deny what is happening. you can’t rationalize this stuff.

    sure, there are many nice muslims out there. they would have been nice people, had they belonged to any fucking religion. however, the ones who were on the fence can choose to be as evil as they want, thanks to the fact that there’s enough ammo to be found in the scripture to back them up.

    and i’d much rather have gotten pregnant at 16 and had an abortion than worry about being killed cause i was seen with a boy.

  25. Apostate, your blog really attracts the psychos. That must be part of the reason it’s so interesting.
    “Pagan-Hindu-Judeo-Christian traditions?” WTF?

  26. “I see all religions as clearly of fallible human origins.”

    A – fucking – men.

  27. The UN Committee on Human Rights has ruled because these things are religious practices women’s advocates cannot bring relief resolutions before it.

    http://paganpower.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/has-the-whole-world-gone-mad/#comment-919

  28. [...] in to mediate the fray–I suggest adding a Best Diplomat award to the BCs), and came across this post at The Apostate, one of the few genuinely eloquent and persuasive ex-Muslim blogs out there. [...]

  29. Buzz Kill, buzz off. I stopped listening at “rebellious little girl.”

    Your Muslim maleness is showing.

  30. Someone calling themselves “RowdyDowdy” left what they fancy is a very scathing comment – nothing that hasn’t been said, and refuted, before – which I accidentally deleted when I tried to hit “Approve.” Fortunately, the wisdom of RowdyDowdy wasn’t irretrievably lost — I could pull it from the comment notification email.

    Here it is.

    RowdyDowdy puts The Apostate in her place:
    ***********************
    JFE: the linguistic similiarities b/w Arabic and Hebrew do have a lot to do with reconstruction of Hebrew using some Arabic constructs, that doesnt really support your argument well. There certainly exists the ability to excise religion from culture, just because people refuse not to do so, or that one of them may make it more amenable not to do so, does not make it impossible. And it doesnt make it more right to declare something like an honor killing a religious issue. If you can argue that Islam is patriarchal, that honor killings are rep. of patriarchy, QED honor killings are a religious issue, then there is a whole heap of horrible things that could be blamed on Islam/religion with similar logical fallacies. But most of those accusations would make you sound like a babbling idiot, or at least should.

    Its never nice for a white person to speak for your experience authoritatively, but its always nice for one brown woman to speak for thousands of experiences broadly authoritatively. Absolutely no hypocrisy in that. We should ignore the thousands of women who argue for their rights derived from religion and religious tradition in the myriad of muslim countries because after all they are progressive “in spite” of Islam rather than because of it, a charge I should take at face value because, after all, you’ve lived in so many muslim countries. As for Saudi Arabia and Pakistan modelling their laws etc. after Islam as if their interpretation of Islam is the only viable one or that their laws could only be informed by one facet: Islam, one doesnt really know what to say to that. I know you like to say that Islam is as Islam does etc., but there is a lot that “Islam” does and does not do, embodied in the actions of a great many muslims, and your one experience, however horrible, can
    hardly account for the vast living, dynamic, humongous creature that is Islam.

    And while I bet you fancy yourself some brown Jesus Christ Superstar for the oppressed muslim everywhere, there are hundreds of women like Mernissi, Ebadi, et al who are as if not much more qualified to speak on the misogyny in Muslim countries, its lack of/relation to religion, and the ways in which to combat it. But obviously, these women should be forsworn for one brown woman who ran away from home because she lived the true “islamic” experience and knows what true “islam” is.
    ************************************

  31. I didnt really “fancy it a scathing comment” but its flattering to think you think me so easily impressed with myself. As for where it has been refuted before, I’d kindly request links to said refutations.

  32. It’s flattering? It shouldn’t be flattering if you’re easily impressed with yourself. It’s silly and conceited to be easily impressed with yourself.

    You are so pompous, it makes me tired just thinking of responding to you, but here goes. (As for links, it would take more time to dig for them, because it’s always in comments that these sorts of conversations happen.)

    Actually, I need to run…exterminator is coming to the house. You’re going to have to wait.

  33. It’s pathetic how you make personal attacks on people that you don’t even personally know. It not only makes you look uneducated, but also immature and childish.

    And your insults towards Islam and Muslims simply put you in the same boat as racists. No one with an educated and mature mind will take you seriously, and they shouldn’t.

    I suggest that all Muslims and non-Muslims should stop debating with you and just ignore you.

    The problem I have with you kind of Apostates is that you become so aggressive and filled with hate. If you found another way that brings you freedom and happiness, then why do you have problems with other people’s religions? Buddha once taught to NEVER hate your old religion if you convert to another one. It’s clear that you’re not interested in enlightenment and establishing positive relations with all human beings, including Muslims.

    If you are so happy with your new path in life, then shouldn’t that Love and Joy outshine any hate you have? Rabia Al-Adawiyyah, the female Islamic mystic of Baghdad, once said, “I Love God, that leaves me no time to hate the devil.” What’s the lesson hear? If you Love so much, then there is no need to hate.

    Take a look at yourself — you’re defining yourself by hating another religion. It’s like people won’t even see you as who you are anymore, they just perceive you as “Apostate.” Then you take cheap shots on people you don’t even know, which is so utterly ridiculous and pre-school.

    There is no need for separation. The differences we see between religions is, like any other form of division, merely an illusion of the outward reality. Some of us are too stuck in belief systems that we forget the purely spiritual foundation of our faiths. Whether you speak of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Buddha (peace upon them all), their experience with the Divine is what unites their Souls. These enlightened human beings shared something in common, they were all revolutionists and fought in the battle against the selfish, material world, in order to bring people to the World of the Unseen.

    Those guided well on their paths should not point fingers and criticize another person simply because of he/she is following a different religion. If you have problems with another religion, it means you have problems with YOURSELF. The flaws you see in us are merely flaws you see within you. The ambitions of human being is to reach the stage of Expansiveness, the stage of Compassion, the stage of Self-Actualization. When we achieve this, we become All-Loving towards those around us, we become all tolerant and accepting. Open-mindedness is not being exclusive to one faith, but rather it is learning the ability to open your heart and become a Compassionate, Expansive, and all Loving human being. When you understand this, you will discover a portion within yourself that you may have never known existed. There will be no conflict between your beliefs and other people’s beliefs anymore.

    Salaam, Shalom, Shlama, Peace

  34. Molk-e-Divan, if you had reached that place of enlightenment and compassion, you would have read what I wrote, understood, and left in real peace. As it is, it’s rather ironic that you’re accusing me of not leaving people with differing beliefs alone, and that you’re accusing me of attacking people I don’t know. What, pray tell, are YOU doing?

    I am merely writing on my own blog, which apparently bothers the everloving fuck out of you. I am not the one commenting on other people’s blogs, pretending to be more enlightened than they. You need a whole lot more soul searching to do before you feel entitled to preaching.

  35. Rowdydowdy, there isn’t much to say that you couldn’t have figured out for yourself if you were a little smarter. But I’ll lay it out for you.

    1. I don’t speak for anyone but myself. It’s obvious, I say so often, it’s a given on any personal blog. BUT, I have more right to speak for my experience vis a vis Islam than Natalia Antonova, or any other non-Muslim has to speak about other people’s experiences as Muslims. I grant that some who are Muslim may agree with her, but if I disagree, I can call her on it, because she has no personal experience to point to. I don’t, on the other hand, attack Muslim women here, or go to their blogs and tell them they don’t speak for me. We’re all aware we don’t speak for each other. But as long as we can speak for ourselves, we’re fine. Natalia couldn’t even claim that privilege.

    2. “a charge I should take at face value because, after all, you’ve lived in so many muslim countries.” Since I don’t know who you are, what religion you belong to, where you have lived, what you have experienced, I don’t know what to make of this attack. How many Muslim countries does one have to live in before one can have an opinion? Are you the final judge of that? What gives you the right to scoff at my experience without telling me the basis for scoffing?

    3. “As for Saudi Arabia and Pakistan modelling their laws etc. after Islam as if their interpretation of Islam is the only viable one or that their laws could only be informed by one facet: Islam, one doesnt really know what to say to that. I know you like to say that Islam is as Islam does etc., but there is a lot that “Islam” does and does not do, embodied in the actions of a great many muslims, and your one experience, however horrible, can hardly account for the vast living, dynamic, humongous creature that is Islam.”

    You are rambling. But I guess your point is if you can interpret it away, it doesn’t exist. Great, point taken. I frequently make that point as well. Islam is whatever you call it. Hence, Islam is what I say it is and Islam is what you say it is. Let’s give Allah a call and let him sort out the REAL Islam for us, shall we? Until you put that call in, you have no standing to tell me what is or isn’t Islam.

    4. “And while I bet you fancy yourself some brown Jesus Christ Superstar for the oppressed muslim everywhere, there are hundreds of women like Mernissi, Ebadi, et al who are as if not much more qualified to speak on the misogyny in Muslim countries, its lack of/relation to religion, and the ways in which to combat it.”

    I am not trying to “combat” anything — I would not want to take the mammoth task of combating Islamic misogyny on myself. Why should I? I have left. I don’t have to try and wrest modern interpretations out of a silly ancient book. I gladly leave that task up to the idiots who still believe in the religion.

    I wonder how people like you can come here, make your contempt for me so obvious, and then have the gall to barefacedly demand links to refutations. What right have you to come marching on my blog, read one or two posts and set yourself up to judge me in offensive terms? I’m a brown jesus christ superstar? Are you out of your mind?

    You can dismiss my experience and be sarcastic about me “running away from home” and put Islam in scare quotes all you want. But I am not telling anyone who they should consult when they try to understand their religion, and I’m most certainly not commenting on any Muslim scholar’s ability (or lack thereof) to comment on their religion. Why then you feel a need to come and lecture me about Mernissi, is beyond me.

    I have an idea. Get lost. How does that sound?

    Prick.

  36. This is awesome and brave and TRUE.

    I get pissed when I read what passes for feminism, from ignorant liberals or Muslimah Media Watch, pretending that Islam is wholly separable from culture, not a product of it. Bitch Magazine even published a bit recently claiming that the hijab is a personal choice akin to choosing to wear a long-sleeved shirt and is not actually a religous garment. I felt like my favorite magazine had been hijacked.

    I am the right age to belong to the third wave but I don’t always identify with how it plays out in the U.S. I will never disown feminism because of idiots. Feminism isn’t owned by anyone more than me. It’s a global movement and the idea that women matter is too contentious still, to give it up.

  37. Thanks, Marge, and I agree re feminism. It gets a little frustrating sometimes to share the label with such nitwits, but still won’t stop using it.

    I don’t read feminist mags for that reason – it would be too painful to read that sort of thing, and it’s pretty well ubiquitous now.

  38. There’s another lovely MMW article on Feministe now called “The Elephant in the Feminist Classroom” claiming religion has nothing to do with patriarchy. She also claims that agnosticism is a religion. A choice quote:

    “Religion is a belief system. An idea. And idea cannot actively oppress someone. A holy book cannot chase women around and tell them do this or that—the Bible doesn’t go around physically stopping homosexuality; the Torah doesn’t physically measure the length of an Orthodox Jewish woman’s skirt. “

  39. Oh wow. That graf is dripping with stoopid. Oh my. Hahaha.

  40. Why not kill your parents, and claim it’s an honor killing? Claim that their ‘decision’ to become Muslims offends your religious beliefs, thus you have the right to murder them in cold blood because of the thoughts going through their own heads…

    I doubt many muslims, especially those of Saudi Arabia, could disagree with your logic. And if they do, show them some old book and say “god says it’s ok”…

  41. This is a fantastic article. Thank you.

    Frank says:

    “Forced marriage, honour killing and genital mutilation are rare practices among migrant communities”.

    According to the recent reports in 2008, there was a whopping 60,000 FGM in London alone. Tip of the iceberg!

    Honor killings are overwhelmingly carried out by Muslims in the UK and in Europe. We have yet to hear of any Jewish, Christian , Buddhist, murdering their daughters to honor their men.

    “State schools for Muslim girls”. Girls should have EXACTLY and in every respect the same rights and opportunities as boys. What he is suggesting; is apartheid on the grounds of gender and this is child abuse of the worst kind. Certainly such schools must never be publicly funded at the tax payers expense.

    “In my opinion, a UNICEF photo of the year must show a nine year British girl having a baby ”

    Frank , obviously has no problem at all, with the hideous sight of a “marriage” between a middle aged, paedophile and an 11 year old child” which is very common in the Muslim world, as long as UNICEF would produce a picture of a nine year old British girl having a baby. Gross, why would anyone, much less UNICEF produce a picture of a nine year old child giving birth!

    Says it all, does it not! Obviously, Frank is still in 7th century- Arabia, which is fine, as long as he and his ilk does not try to impose their morally depraved Islamic values on the civilized world.

    Britain, might have some social problems, in particular in the inner city areas, but they are well highlighted and shall be addressed according to 21st century humanitarian values. However, Islam is not the solution, it has been tried and tested in the laboratory of time and is a proven failure at every level, morally, intellectually, socially and economically. Unfortunately, it has nothing to offer mankind, never did.

  42. [...] the conversation on Islam A few weeks ago I posted this link to Apostate’s compelling essay, Why Honor Killings Are A Religious Issue. In light of the New Yorker discussion of the extent to which Islamophobia is racist, sassysenora [...]

  43. Oddly enough Ali Sina has also talked about this subject in his website…

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/

    I find it interesting that moslems cant stop this cirme despite all thier claims…

  44. You rock! Thanks so much for your blog. I found you through Twisty, and I just have to say I am so happy for both your blog and hers… I am a white (quite liberal, but usually not moronic) woman living in a muslim/hindu environment. I have been guilty, in my personal debates, of a deplorable degree of apologist backsliding, and disingenuous whitewashing of my own visceral disagreement with organized religion and how it perpetuates the patriarchy.
    In my limited social circles, it is extremely rare to find other women even willing to admit,in mixed company, that they have ever experienced sexism. Admitting so at all, even with disingenuous backsliding, usually gets me a lot of “why don’t you let go of your anger?” or worse yet, “You’d be so pretty, if you’d just shut up.”
    I am so glad I’ve found your blogs. It makes me realize how harmful it is, not just to myself but to others as well, to backslide on some viewpoints just to try to make others more palatable.
    Thank you for your strength and conviction. You are an inspiration.

  45. Why, thank you, Zoray, and welcome!

  46. [...] it to Apostate: Let me repeat that one more time just so everyone gets it. I am afraid my parents will kill me to [...]

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